Home > Coruscant, News Release, Reportage > Martial Law lifted in the Republic

Martial Law lifted in the Republic

November 29, 2011

GNN Corespondant in Coruscant gathered several declaration in the Republic.

Corscuant: Controversy continues to surround the Republic as recent decisions by the government, its military arms, as well as its allies have proven to be highly unpopular. Adding to confusion is the disagreement between highly public politicians, diverging views of member planets, as well as even the interpretation and understanding of Republic law. Most recently, the decision by Chancellor Baccus Altus to institute martial law has drawn a lot of fire.

Having implemented the procedure after numerous terrorist attacks on Republic worlds, the exact nature of the edict under Republic law has just recently come to light. Because the Republic is treading on new ground its understandable that the Chancellor misunderstood exactly what was being implemented since several worlds have different operating procedures. However, under Republic law, when martial law is declared it gives the power to the government and its military wings to arrest and execute persons without access to what he stated as fair trials.

The case highlighting this situation and the one the Chancellor himself used as a basis for his new decision to overturn the martial law edict, was the recent execution of Admiral Vice, once known as “Wise”, by the GAR. Stating in his press release that he acted with mistaken judgment and will now have to answer for his actions, the Chancellor lifted martial law, but stated several of the security procedures would still continue to be in place, but without the added burden on the citizen’s rights that martial law had created.

Prime Minister Tesserian of Bakura during his speech (source: Galactic Lightspeed Communication)

However, not everyone in the Republic systems sees the Admiral Vice case as a breach against the rights of a person. Prime Minister of Bakura, Tesserian, in another press release stated that Vice had indeed been given a fair trial and in his own words stated “…there was nothing summary about his execution. ‘Wise’ was tried and sentenced in absentia a long, long time ago.  This is the end of a very old story, a very sad story of a man, a brother, who betrayed his friends, and made himself an enemy of the free people of the galaxy. The execution of ‘Wise’ on the part of GAR was perfectly legal, and in keeping with Bakuran and Tythonian law regarding treason and aggravated treachery in time of war.  Indeed, everything was done to attempt to rehabilitate ‘Wise’.”No details were given to what methods were used to help rehabilitate him, but from the press release the Prime Minister makes several statement not the least of which was in essence that the Admiral had brought this on himself when he left the GAR and began working for its enemy, the Sith.Hopefully a middle ground on the differing views can be resolved, laws made clearer, and the responsibilities of the government and agencies be declared and cleared. Unfortunately as of now several citizens and especially outside governments are scratching their heads over how the Republic operates and the seemingly independent actions by not only member worlds, the Jedi orders, but supposed government agencies like the GAR as well.

— GNN Corespondant

Advertisements
  1. Xan Qenadius
    November 29, 2011 at 3:26 PM

    “…there was nothing summary about his execution. ’Wise’ was tried and sentenced in absentia a long, long time ago. This is the end of a very old story, a very sad story of a man, a brother, who betrayed his friends, and made himself an enemy of the free people of the galaxy. The execution of ‘Wise’ on the part of GAR was perfectly legal, and in keeping with Bakuran and Tythonian law regarding treason and aggravated treachery in time of war. Indeed, everything was done to attempt to rehabilitate ‘Wise’.”

    Tried in absentia? So when did republican systems start using forms of “justice” such as a unfair trial such as that, so much for the bastion (subtle pun is subtle) of all that’s right with the Republic.

    No Mr. Tesserian, this was not a fair trial nor was the murder justified. As a result, I hope to see economic sanctions placed on Bakura as well as travel bans and the expulsion of bakura’s Senator,should they have one from the Senate. also the Republic to disavow from the GAR or to impose measures that take GAR’s autonomy away from them and placed back into the hands of the Senate where it belongs.

    • November 29, 2011 at 4:06 PM

      I’m neither for or against Wise’s execution. Technically Wise committed high treason, which is in of itself met with being captured dead or alive. He was obviously guilty of this crime, so there was no need for a second trial. Even if he was working for the Hutts in a diplomatic mission of aid, technically he was on a planet in Republic Space where he was wanted dead or alive. Obviously poor decision making on his part, considering diplomatic immunity only gets you so far when you’re a known traitor.

      I myself just like having a reason to shoot people.

  2. Kincike
    November 29, 2011 at 10:08 PM

    Oh by the force why you all keep arguing?! Whats the point in it?! Wise is dead, indeed sad news, but nothing’s gonna change, he won’t be alive just because you point to the Republic that this is what republicans do, bla bla bla… It’s indeed sad to know that Wise was killed but it was also his fault: he was wanted by the republic

  3. Brave
    November 30, 2011 at 12:01 AM

    It’s worth noting here, that Wise also stole several million credits worth of advanced military hardware and equipment when he left, going rogue the day before he was to receive the highest honors the GAR could bestow, His actions were nothing short of High Treason, and for an Officer of the Grand Army of the Republic there can be no other sentence, He not only publicized his defection to the enemy and his theft, but gloated about it, no trial is needed when there is such a public confession, no need to waste taxpayer credits and court resources with a trial, and yet it was conducted anyway.

    Wise was a Traitor the Republic, a Traitor to the GAR, a Traitor to his Office, and a Traitor to the very founding principles of liberty and democracy. He got what he deserved.

    • Xan Qenadius
      November 30, 2011 at 6:48 AM

      Just as treasonous as say a trial in absentia or a murder without actual independant due process?

      Spare the rhetoric and when you actually decide to apply the tenants of democracy and the GAR actually SERVES the Republic, then talk

      Right now…you are only proving the fact the GAR needs to be disbanded or have it’s autonomy taken from them

  4. Salene Lusch
    November 30, 2011 at 3:17 AM

    Amazing declaration, the New Republic Constitution yet grants the people the right to a public trial where they can confront the witnesses against them. Hard to perform in absentia.

  5. Brave
    November 30, 2011 at 8:34 AM

    You people are missing the point. Wise served long before the current incarnation of the Republic even existed. He wasn’t a civilian with the rights of the average citizen of the Republic, He was a sworn Officer of the Grand Army of the Republic.

    “Just as treasonous as say a trial in absentia or a murder without actual independant due process?”
    You don’t understand what the word treason means do you? Trial in absentia means that he’s not there to personally face his accusers, yes. But the evidence is still presented, an advocate is still assigned to his defense, and though he’s not there to make a plea, does not mean the trial cannot continue, he confessed to his crimes across the bloody holonet for gutters sake! Hell, the GAR thought he was dead until he showed up with a stolen capital ship working with our enemies, and we were about to posthumously give him the highest honor we have. There’s no need for an extended public trial with him in custody, the evidence was so plain that anyone with a holonet terminal could’ve been called as a witness, the evidence was overwhelming that there could’ve been no other defense.

    “Spare the rhetoric and when you actually decide to apply the tenants of democracy and the GAR actually SERVES the Republic, then talk”
    You talk as if a soldier of the grand army is a the same as an average citizen of the Republic. They aren’t. The Grand Army has it’s own protocols like all military services due with regards to criminals within their ranks, they have their own process, their own method of trial and prosecution. A military is NOT a Democracy, it is this way so that they can protect that very Democracy you cherish. So they can maintain the rights that Citizens of the Republic have, So they can defend the Republic.
    Or have you never heard of a court martial before?

    “Amazing declaration, the New Republic Constitution yet grants the people the right to a public trial where they can confront the witnesses against them. Hard to perform in absentia”.

    I say again, The Grand Army of the Republic has existed before the Constitution was drafted, and Wise’ service and the process of court martial within the grand army, as an Officer of it, takes precedence over the Civilian processes, and does not not apply to him. he doesn’t have the same rights, he gave them up when he accepted an officer’s commission, he gave them up when he defected with millions of credits of stolen grand army war machines and weaponry. He joined our enemy, not only is he guilty of high treason, he’s guilty of grand theft, piracy, desertion, and aiding and abetting, Half of those at least if not more carry a guaranteed death by firing squad sentence,

    Why is anyone even the slightest bit surprised? Why is no one here outraged that wise, who was a beloved and respected Officer would turn on his brothers, which is what we are, Brothers, and help our enemies? Why is no one here upset over the lives he helped end, innocent lives shattered because of his actions? Why does no one here care when an explosion kills bystanders and gets a slap on the wrist, and no one is surprised, when a traitor is executed?

    You talk about liberty, and democracy, and that’s well and good for you, but for a soldier, a man who dedicates their life to service and fighting for those very freedoms, we have different words instead, words like Honor, Brotherhood, LOYALTY, Words you know nothing about, Words that mean something to us, that mean more to us, than any word could mean to you. we spend our lives training for war, in service of the republic, it’s drilled into our head from birth, it’s bred into our bones and it flows in our blood. And when one of our own betrays us, it is abhorrent, it is monstrous, it is heart breaking. how DARE you speak about wise being treated unfairly after what he did, how DARE you accuse those who served him Justice of not giving him, the very thing he broke his oath to protect and serve.

    Next time you see Grand Army boys in the purple ,orange and blue fighting for the republic? how about you tell them that they have the rights of a civilian, and that they should lower their arms and live their lives with their freedoms, then who will protect them when the Sith invade? The useless navel gazing Jedi? I think not. Deep down in places you don’t want to talk about, You want us at your back, you NEED us at your back, So how about you civilians stop whining about how The Grand Army dispenses Justice on it’s own, and stop questioning the manner in which do it ,which has absolutely no bearing, on you.

    • Xan Qenadius
      November 30, 2011 at 9:14 AM

      The GAR is above no one, including Senators,Civilians,Jedi or chancellors. No one is above anyone.

      To assume you are is another reason the GAR needs to be disbanded or brought to heel the hard way. you don’t like it…tough.

      You serve the Republic,not yourselves. You seem to think cause you carry arms and decide to jump into conflicts,that makes you above everyone…you are not.

      You are not even a soldier, you are a whiner. you care nothing about the actual people you serve…which might I add ARE civilians moreso then Jedi,Senate or otherwise.

      I don’t want a bunch of guerrillas in outdated plastoid armor that think they are above others and above actual due process at my back. I’d rather see those individuals, like you brought to heel and to learn the true nature of an army that serves the Republic. Or if you refuse, which you are proving you are, then I’d rather see your funding cut off, your guerrillas branded as rogue and a REAL army rising to take your place.

      Trials in absentia, a self-important nature and cold blooded murder…those have been witnessed and placed in the public record.

      Tales of corruption,back-handed politics, possible hidden motives are not publicized for fears of their veracity,but GAR has been mentioned in cases such as those.

      I DARE tell the truth and I DARE speak out.

      Keep proving us detractors right and we’ll continue to DARE

  6. Morrigan Wemyss
    November 30, 2011 at 8:42 AM

    Oh of course you can come up with reason for holding some one. No one is really innocent in the galaxy after all. The fact remains, when he was arrested he was a member of another government. When that happens things tend to get messy in fairly short order. You can not expect us to allow our colleges to be arrested at will and not, at the very least. take offence. Nor can you tell me if it had been a republic agent and the shoe was on the other foot, you would allow it to occur with out taking some sort action.

  7. November 30, 2011 at 10:41 AM

    The decision to enact martial law was a stupid one. Besides removing the rights that every Republic citizen holds dear, it sabotaged the Republic’s defense against its enemies. However, the mark of a democracy is the ability to reverse incorrect decisions, and while I believe this is still a black mark on the record of Chancellor Altus, it was at least a short lived one.

    Brave, you state your points well, and you seem to have a good understanding of what a trial in absentia means. I suggest you don’t bother trying to explain it to Xan Qenadius, though. He reacts in anger to being corrected, possibly because it happens so often, and you won’t get through to him.

  8. Xan Qenadius
    November 30, 2011 at 11:26 AM

    Ahhh another terriorist reports in and sides with the para-military group.

    How predictable.

    Brave’s “points” much like GLA’s “liberation” are similar. Both smell and look like bantha excrement when you examine the facts behind the “statements”

    I react in anger to stupidity….hence why you have yet to really come up with a strategy on Uvena that is proving anything other then GLa’s and your own personal ineptitude in dealing with other cultures or understanding the basest tenents of the faith you claim GLA possesses.

    How is the war with the Hutts going? Oh that’s right…it’s still on going,even after the GAR helped to remove an obstacle of sorts to your “endevours” with Vice’s murder. Convieient that isn’t it? So you happen to place more and more civilians at risk over your “moral right” to interfere with the Hutt culture, and have absolutely no clue what real peace is.

    It’s no wonder you defend GAR…you are tarred with the same brush, if the Republic opened it’s eyes you’d be braded as terrorists the same as GAR would be de-legitimized because both your sad group of “jedi” and this “army” are more like thugs and sith then what you claim to be. You go out and prove it,time and again.

    • Brave
      November 30, 2011 at 11:37 AM

      You still don’t get it.

      Wise was an Officer of the Grand Army of the Republic, No one is saying GAR is above the laws of the republic and due process, But GAR officers who commit crimes are tried by Military Court Marshall because they are a Grand ARMY, and that is how Army’s deal with their criminals, Through Court Marshall. Of course The same statutes, laws, and methods of due process don’t apply to him, Him Deserting the Grand Army doesn’t make him exempt from being tried via THEIR laws and regulations,

      “Vice” was not a Hutt, even if he decided to join them, even if he decided to work with them , He was a clone, and an Officer first. him joining the hutts does not make the rules no longer apply to him, it does not magically change that he committed an act of treason. And No Republic official went into Hutt space to arrest and execute him, Wise was Executed in Republic Space. As a man guilty of Treason against the Republic and The Grand Army thereof.

  9. Xan Qenadius
    November 30, 2011 at 12:05 PM

    Number One: Wise WAS also a trusted Hutt official, The same as their majordomos and others are, not all of them happen to be of the Hutt race. They are still considered full members of the government. What was committed was an act of war on this issue alone,if the Hutts choose to see it this way. Every heard of diplomatic immunity? That would apply in wise’s case….even with the circumstances surrounding him before his joining them,he would still qualify under Republican law.

    Which brings me to the second point: A trial in absentia is NOT a trial. I do not care how you choose to spin it, The fact is when you blatantly ignore the laws of the government you serve, you can not prosecute or execute on those same laws when it’s convienient for you to do so.

    It was murder pure and simple, a possible act of war, a futher de-stabilization of the Republic and all at a time when the Republic can ill afford blunders such as these to occur.

    The attempted smoke screening is not working.

    • Brave
      November 30, 2011 at 1:21 PM

      “Number One: Wise WAS also a trusted Hutt official, The same as their majordomos and others are, not all of them happen to be of the Hutt race. They are still considered full members of the government. What was committed was an act of war on this issue alone,if the Hutts choose to see it this way. Every heard of diplomatic immunity? That would apply in wise’s case….even with the circumstances surrounding him before his joining them,he would still qualify under Republican law.”
      Diplomatic Immunity is NOT RETRO-ACTIVE. No government or group can grant Diplomatic Immunity for a crime that was already committed before diplomatic immunity was in place, and furthermore, Diplomatic immunity ONLY applies when the government grants immunity to specific diplomats, so unless the Republic officially recognized Wise’ status as a Hutt diplomat and thusly granted him Immunity then He is still subject to Republic law. But that’s beside the point, because before he was a hutt official, HE WAS A KARKING GRAND ARMY ADMIRAL.Why the living force would the republic grant diplomat status to one of their grand army’s admirals who defected stealing a massive capital ship and it’s resources and joined the enemy, in an act of desertion, piracy, and high treason?

      Let me make this extremely clear to get this through your thick skull.
      IT DOES NOT MATTER IF HE WAS A HUTT OFFICIAL AFTER THE FACT. HE COMMITTED AN ACT OF TREASON. AND HE IS STILL CHARGED WITH THAT CRIME. DEFECTING TO ANOTHER ORGANIZATION DOES NOT NEGATE THAT.
      If anything was an act of war, it was the Hutts harboring and giving safe haven to a known and very public traitor, who made off with a ton of military hardware. And more so

      “Which brings me to the second point: A trial in absentia is NOT a trial. I do not care how you choose to spin it, The fact is when you blatantly ignore the laws of the government you serve, you can not prosecute or execute on those same laws when it’s convienient for you to do so.”
      First of all, yes it is a trial. You have the right to face your accusers, but if you do not show up to court, and flee like wise did, you waive that right, Since bounty hunters had failed to bring him in to face trial, A Trial in absentia occurred. if it’s not a trial why is there even a legal karking term for it you? You blathering moron. A Trial in absentia means that an advocate is assigned as a public defender, and the evidence is brought forth by the prosecution to show the Jury, in a civilian trial. The only difference is the defendent is not present to testify personally, and since wise made a very public confession of his crimes on the holonet, his testimony is utterly irrelevant and there is more than enough overwhelming evidence to convinct beyond a reasonable doubt.

      BUT, that is in the case of a CIVILIAN Trial. And one thing you still don’t get is.

      “The fact is when you blatantly ignore the laws of the government you serve, you can not prosecute or execute on those same laws when it’s convienient for you to do so.”
      Even if anything illegal was done on a civilian level, which it is not.

      CIVILIAN LAW AND STATUTES DO NOT APPLY TO MILITARY PERSONNEL.
      For instance, if a Military Officer kills someone who isn’t an enemy combatant, He isn’t tried for manslaughter. Because in war, people die. When someone aids in abets the ‘enemy’ in civilian life, it’s Obstruction of justice or accessory to a crime. which is a felony. When a Military personage does it. It’s Aiding and Abetting the Enemy which is a capital crime and carries a death sentence.

      So, obviously, in case I’m not being clear enough THE SAME LAWS THAT APPLY TO CIVILIANS DO NOT APPLY TO MILITARY OFFICERS.
      Wise was a military Officer, BEFORE HE WAS EVER A HUTT OFFICIAL. Signing on with the Hutts does not make him suddenly not a war criminal, it doesn’t negate his crimes or his service or prior allegiances,

      Had Republic forces stormed Hutt space to get extradite Wise, Then it would’ve been understandable to say it’s an act of war, even though The Hutts not only harbored a known fugitive, but made him a significant official within their government, But that’s not what happened, Wise returned to Republic space where he was still a wanted man and sentenced to die. The sentence was carried out.

      He knew the risks, Stop trying to act as if it’s some great tragedy or that he didn’t commit any crimes, or that he shouldn’t be held accountable for his actions because the Hutts, who are also notorious criminals, gave him safe harbor

      • (Captain) Alex Kardel - The Madman
        November 30, 2011 at 1:27 PM

        (( This ^ ))

    • Sha'ira
      November 30, 2011 at 2:54 PM

      Being a trusted Hutt Official does not wipe away his High Treason. What part of this is so complicated Xan? You want GAR and GLA to be held accountable for crimes and for not fighting for the Republic but then you defend a man guilty of High Treason, stealing resources and working for the enemies of the Republic. Why didnt you want Vice to pay for his crimes? Why is he above the rest? Oh its because hes a Hutt Official..

      • Brave
        November 30, 2011 at 4:00 PM

        Exactly, combined that with the Hutts BARELY being a legitimate power, and their millenia old history of being a criminal cartel flaunting the law, it is mind boggling why anyone would think that makes what he did ok

  10. (Captain) Alex Kardel - The Madman
    November 30, 2011 at 5:24 PM

    Brave :
    Exactly, combined that with the Hutts BARELY being a legitimate power, and their millenia old history of being a criminal cartel flaunting the law, it is mind boggling why anyone would think that makes what he did ok

    The Hutts are in no way capable of competing with the New Republic or Sith Empire as an actual government or military force. Fortunately, most officials are wise enough to realize their predicament. The Hutts keep the Outer Rim and Hutt Space functioning. Destroy the Hutts and you destroy the livelihood of those that live within Hutt Space. It would also take a significant amount of resources to reclaim, rebuild, and reboot the societies and so forth. The only reason the Hutts are a galactic power is because other powers are forced to tolerate them, because of a fragile stability.

    • (Captain) Alex Kardel - The Madman
      November 30, 2011 at 5:30 PM

      To add to this, Luke Skywalker, a lone jedi, assassinated Jabba Desilijic Tiure with the help of a few motley companions simply because he wouldn’t free the famed smuggler Han Solo. This is, at least, what history shows. It’s not hard to kill a Hutt or weaken them, along with their criminal empire. It’s simply very unwise to do so.

  11. November 30, 2011 at 6:46 PM

    Brave :
    Wise was an Officer of the Grand Army of the Republic, No one is saying GAR is above the laws of the republic and due process…

    Wise was Executed in Republic Space. As a man guilty of Treason against the Republic and The Grand Army thereof.

    This is a major problem. It does not matter if Wise was already declared guilty, was already a fugitive, was already a traitor. You acknowledge that even that precedent did not motivate GAR to seek him out in Hutt Space, under the jurisdiction of a government with, at best, a flimsy establishment of legitimacy, but this is because you acknowledge that this was due to local laws, not only local to Bakura, but to GAR. This was Bakura/GAR’s case, Bakura/GAR’s problem and Bakura/GAR’s burden.

    It was not a burden of the Republic or the Galactic Senate.

    Where was Wise arrested? Tython. Tython is not in Bakura’s jurisdiction, though it is in the Republic’s jurisdiction, and technically under GAR’s jurisdiction when acting as federal soldiers.

    This means that acting as federal soldiers, GAR made an arrest for Bakura on the heels of an ancient case made before their agreement to join the GS. In other words, they used Federal Authority to prosecute a personal grudge.

    This was enabled by that disastrous martial law declaration (one I think every GS citizen should have refused to acknowledge, as I question the legality of such a declaration without a senate vote of approval, and unless I’m mistaken, no vote was taken on the matter). The depressing thing is that GAR’s behavior does not give the impression that jurisdiction would have mattered- with or without martial law, they would have exerted federal powers to pursue missions in Bakura and GAR’s interests on the Republic’s credits and under the Republic’s guise of authority.

    GAR does think they are above the law- or they would not have abused the GS or Tython as they did.

    That’s not even getting into the actual laws broken. The GAR had to agree to abide by the constitution of the Republic. Here are some of the laws they agreed to- Wise, according to the constitution, would be considered a non-citizen as no declaration had been made of him by the Republic as a Dangerous Non-Citizen or an Enemy of the Republic- although GAR seems to think they have the authority to declare that without any word from the Senate- which would be at best a lie, and at worst a major crime.

    II:1 No executive or legislative enforcement of discrimination against a Non-Citizen(s) is permitted by any means or for any reason, so long as the DNC(s) do not infringe upon the rights or livelihood of GSoNR citizen(s).

    What does this mean? GSoNR citizens didn’t exist until after the GS was created. Wise never did anything to GSoNR citizens- in fact he was giving them aid on Tython. According to the constitution, martial law cannot even apply to Wise, as it would disparage against his rights as a Non-Citizen.

    II:6 A NC has at all times the right to be secure in their persons, residences, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, without written warrants issued from the office of the GsoNR Chancellor, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    There was no Federal mandate or authority given to GAR to conduct that arrest. They just did it. Heartwarming.

    II:7 No NC shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of GSoNR or local law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

    Again, Wise is a Non-citizen in the eyes of the Republic. He was arrested under Federal authority (unless GAR would like to say Bakura’s authority extends to being in charge of Tython, in which case they could try him on Bakura “locally”), requiring that it be a case by the GSoNR, with a GSoNR trial, court, jury, and ruling. That was not done.

    II:8 In all criminal prosecutions of a NC, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

    He may have been tried In Absentia before the GS existed. But in accepting the constitution, they accept Wise’s new status and the rights afforded to him, including the right to a trial- a real one.

    II:9 Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

    Execution is cruel punishment. If you’d like to argue that it’s not, I have some pictures from Uvena Prime to show you.

    II:10 The enumeration in the GsoNR Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the NCs.

    Finally, this. What does this mean? This is what GAR agreed to in joining the GS. It was GAR’s duty not to construe any rights to disparage those enumerated here to Vice as a Non-citizen.

    GAR failed the constitution, they failed the citizens of the Republic, and they failed themselves.

    If the GS makes no move towards a shake down after this incredible violation of rights and laws, then the Republic is truly corrupt.

    • Brave
      November 30, 2011 at 7:54 PM

      Let me address your points.

      “This is a major problem. It does not matter if Wise was already declared guilty, was already a fugitive, was already a traitor. You acknowledge that even that precedent did not motivate GAR to seek him out in Hutt Space, under the jurisdiction of a government with, at best, a flimsy establishment of legitimacy, but this is because you acknowledge that this was due to local laws, not only local to Bakura, but to GAR. This was Bakura/GAR’s case, Bakura/GAR’s problem and Bakura/GAR’s burden.”

      No the problem here was, not that It was Bakura’s burden, it is GAR’s issue, and GAR operates within Republic Space because GAR is The Grand Army of the Republic, it’s military branch. They did not seek out Wise outside of Republic space because they didn’t have the resources to conduct such an operation and it would’ve been violating the sovereignty of the Hutts own governments, they could’ve requested extradition, but the hutts could’ve denied them, they could have threatened military action and been in the legal right but they did not because such a move would have sparked an unnecessary military conflict.

      I”t was not a burden of the Republic or the Galactic Senate.

      Where was Wise arrested? Tython. Tython is not in Bakura’s jurisdiction, though it is in the Republic’s jurisdiction, and technically under GAR’s jurisdiction when acting as federal soldiers.”
      Ok, this is where a lot of people get confused. The Grand Army of the Republic is not a military that is of Bakura, it’s main base and academy is stationed there, but the Bakuran government has no say or control whatsoever in the Grand Army’s Internal Structure. The Grand Army is and always has been an agency of the Republic to serve the interests of the Republic, and to defend it. Which is the main assignment of the 501st Legion, Security and Military Police.

      “This means that acting as federal soldiers, GAR made an arrest for Bakura on the heels of an ancient case made before their agreement to join the GS. In other words, they used Federal Authority to prosecute a personal grudge.”
      Again, no it is not for Bakura. It is for the Grand Army of the Republic and therefore the Republic itself. The Grand Army of the Republic like all military services has strict laws and rules governing conduct and behavior of it’s Officers. And any breach in their own protocol, and any crime committed by a member falls first into the hands of the Grand Army’s JAG officers and Military Police to indict, press charges and try before the matter falls to any civilian court. if it does at all. This is not a matter of personal grudge, This is a matter of the law and a breach of the Oath all officers take upon taking their commission. and the enforcement of penalties.

      What if the grand army didn’t do this? What if they allowed any officer to defect in such a way, stealing hardware and do nothing when the deserter enters republic space, where they actively patrol? are they supposed to not take action? That would set the precedent that any officer could desert as wise did and face no consequence, that cannot and will not be allowed.

      “to- Wise, according to the constitution, would be considered a non-citizen as no declaration had been made of him by the Republic as a Dangerous Non-Citizen or an Enemy of the Republic- although GAR seems to think they have the authority to declare that without any word from the Senate- which would be at best a lie, and at worst a major crime.”
      He would have been one from the beginning since he left republic space and did not reside within it when the constitution was adopted, he is by default in that instance a Non Citizen if he was a civilian.

      But Wise was not a Civilian, this is what you people keep forgetting, he was an Officer of the Grand Army of the Republic, This means that The GAR’s regulations for enforcing the law applies, Not the Republic Constitution. Applying new laws do not retro-actively grant any rights or criminalize past actions nor do they de-criminalize them.

      The Senate has no Say, No Bearing on The status of Wise, because he was an Officer of the Grand Army of the Republic and The Clone council has Absolute Authority on his status because of this. The Senate never comes into play because he’s not a civilian.

      “What does this mean? GSoNR citizens didn’t exist until after the GS was created. Wise never did anything to GSoNR citizens- in fact he was giving them aid on Tython. According to the constitution, martial law cannot even apply to Wise, as it would disparage against his rights as a Non-Citizen.”
      Again you keep forgetting, Wise DOES NOT HAVE RIGHTS AS A NON CITIZEN. He was a Military Officer, AN OFFICER. He did not Retire from the Grand army like I did, he deserted, Which is Illegal, therefore he legally was still an Officer of the grand army (at least in terms of deciding his rights and obligations)Which means the Civilian Statutes and laws that grant him rights as a citizen do not apply in the matters of law enforcement.

      Again, Wise is a Non-citizen in the eyes of the Republic. He was arrested under Federal authority (unless GAR would like to say Bakura’s authority extends to being in charge of Tython, in which case they could try him on Bakura “locally”), requiring that it be a case by the GSoNR, with a GSoNR trial, court, jury, and ruling. That was not done.”
      This is also because of your willfull ignorance of that Wise was Not a Non Citizen, he was a member of the Military, and Thus he was not arrested under Federal Authority, But Military Authority. There would be no GSoNR Trial, Court, Jury or ruling, he would have been tried (if he had not long been tried before in absentia) with a a Military Tribunal Court marshal hearing. Not a Civilian Trial.

      “There was no Federal mandate or authority given to GAR to conduct that arrest. They just did it. Heartwarming.”
      They didn’t need it. They had Military Authority to arrest one of their own members and discipline them as they saw fit. This is the same thing you see in every Military organization.

      “He may have been tried In Absentia before the GS existed. But in accepting the constitution, they accept Wise’s new status and the rights afforded to him, including the right to a trial- a real one.”
      No they do not. First of all, Again, Wise’ status would not change under the new constitution, he still would be considered a deserting officer of the grand army and therefore military personnel and would fall under military jurisdiction as a result.
      Second, A Trial in Absentia is very real as I have previously explained, despite whatever naysayers who don’t know what they’re talking about would claim.

      “Execution is cruel punishment. If you’d like to argue that it’s not, I have some pictures from Uvena Prime to show you.”
      That’s debatable.There is no law against capital punishment, and it’s stretching to say that The death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment, as a quick death is not especially cruel, nor is it in any way unusual. and of course remember, The Penalty for Treason in almost all governments, in all societies, especially in the military is a death by firing squad.

      “Finally, this. What does this mean? This is what GAR agreed to in joining the GS. It was GAR’s duty not to construe any rights to disparage those enumerated here to Vice as a Non-citizen.”
      GAR’s Military personnel do not count as non citizens, they are military. and it is outlandishly absurd and naive to think that the same laws and provisions would apply to them as do civilians, especially in the case of officers. There are many rights Officers do not have that Civilians do, that’s just the way things are.
      Just one example is that, Officers do not have the right to freedom of speech, or of the press. as they are forbidden to bad mouth the chain of command.
      This is the way a military works,

      Wise did not become a non-citizen when the constitution came into effect, nor did he when he defected by desertion, in an act of high treason. Which is a crime.

      By your arguing, you’re saying that he should be granted rights as a non citizen because of his defection, which is absurd, it would reward him for his criminal actions, and give him freedoms after his betrayal of his oath, that is not Justice,

      All those who cry for “Justice” for ‘Vice’ Remember his crime, Remember he broadcast it, Remember he was an OFFICER OF THE GRAND ARMY OF THE REPUBLIC. That he is beholden to those laws and when he broke them, he gave up any rights he had.

      • November 30, 2011 at 10:09 PM

        Brave :
        It is for the Grand Army of the Republic and therefore the Republic itself.

        “I (Gar) am the Republic!”

        That sounds very familiar.

        You keep saying GAR is the Republic and always has been- but GAR has been around longer than the GS, has been involved in many things the GS has had nothing to do with and your argument justifies using GS forces in any capacity to pursue GAR’s wishes because according to you, what is in GAR’s best interest is in the Republic’s best interest. Well, GAR has gone to war with Byss, occupied (and then been kicked out of) Rhelg, and had an altogether terrible record of losses when they aren’t outnumbering their enemy by a factor of five (and sometimes even then). What you are saying is that all incidents, all blunders, all losses, including those incurred before GAR joined the GS and before the GS even existed, are now inherited by the Galactic Senate you claim to serve the best interests of? And in return you get to dictate which rights and which laws you will and will not recognize?

        Did you explain all of this to the senate before they approved you, or did they all appoint spider-monkeys as their stand-ins for that vote?

        Brave :
        Again, no it is not for Bakura. It is for the Grand Army of the Republic and therefore the Republic itself. The Grand Army of the Republic like all military services has strict laws and rules governing conduct and behavior of it’s Officers. And any breach in their own protocol, and any crime committed by a member falls first into the hands of the Grand Army’s JAG officers and Military Police to indict, press charges and try before the matter falls to any civilian court. if it does at all. This is not a matter of personal grudge, This is a matter of the law and a breach of the Oath all officers take upon taking their commission. and the enforcement of penalties.

        Before GAR was ever in the republic. Months (or years, depending on who you ask) have passed since that incident and now GAR wants to use a federal mandate to declare this a federal issue they have authority over while outside of the specific area (that is, Bakura and GAR’s base there, unaffiliated with the Republic at the time of the crime) the crime occurred in while cutting a lightsaber through any sense of respect for law to execute someone they simply didn’t have the resources to catch months/years ago?

        Brave :
        What if the grand army didn’t do this? What if they allowed any officer to defect in such a way, stealing hardware and do nothing when the deserter enters republic space, where they actively patrol? are they supposed to not take action? That would set the precedent that any officer could desert as wise did and face no consequence, that cannot and will not be allowed.

        This was not a theft from the Republic, it was a theft from GAR alone, which is why it is not a federal crime and therefore does not grant GAR the authority to act with federal jurisdiction in making an arrest in Republic space. This crime was against GAR and bakura, long before GAR was in the Republic, and when many doubted it even should be allowed to be in the Republic. Clearly those doubters are being proven true. You are trying to twist ancient history into justification for enforcing authority you don’t have.

        Brave :
        But Wise was not a Civilian, this is what you people keep forgetting, he was an Officer of the Grand Army of the Republic, This means that The GAR’s regulations for enforcing the law applies, Not the Republic Constitution [Emphasis not in original]. Applying new laws do not retro-actively grant any rights or criminalize past actions nor do they de-criminalize them.
        The Senate has no Say, No Bearing on The status of Wise, because he was an Officer of the Grand Army of the Republic and The Clone council has Absolute Authority on his status because of this. The Senate never comes into play because he’s not a civilian.

        Wow. I don’t even know what to say. Well almost.

        First, I was once a child. By your logic, since I was once a child, even if I become a citizen of another government as an adult, lows of that government should construe me as a child.

        Nice logic there.

        Now for the real dinger- to repeat what you have just said: “Republic Laws do not apply to former members of GAR even if GAR wasn’t recognized until after they defected” And best of all, “The Clone Council has absolute authority on GAR’s behavior, not the Senate.”

        If you serve the Republic, the senate, elected by the people, should be your boss. You are admitting GAR prioritizes its own laws over the GS’s laws and authority, in other words you are saying “GAR is above GS law.”

        Wow.

        Just wow.

        Good job on proving Xanny of all people right, through your own words.

        Brave :
        This is also because of your willfull ignorance of that Wise was Not a Non Citizen, he was a member of the Military, and Thus he was not arrested under Federal Authority, But Military Authority. There would be no GSoNR Trial, Court, Jury or ruling, he would have been tried (if he had not long been tried before in absentia) with a a Military Tribunal Court marshal hearing. Not a Civilian Trial.

        Except he wasn’t in GAR when you arrested and executed him. He had been out of GAR for months/years, in the period between GAR’s independent sentencing through its own courts and its agreement to abide by Republic laws. Until GAR joined the GS Wise was considered by the GS a non-citizen (even as a member of GAR, he would have been defined as a non-citizen, being not a citizen and being not a dangerous/enemy). Now GAR has joined the GS, Wise is not in it, he is a citizen in Hutt space, making him still a non-citizen. If he was in GAR when GAR joined the GS, then defected, it would make sense to assume the Republic would acknowledge him as a member of GAR. But that’s not the case. I understand that he was an officer perfectly well, but you can’t seem to understand that time is a dimension that moves forward inexorably in a linear pattern (unless you ask Morrigan’s time-traveling hate-Jedi).

        Brave :
        They didn’t need it. They had Military Authority to arrest one of their own members and discipline them as they saw fit. This is the same thing you see in every Military organization.

        Military authority to arrest one of their own members from within their own organization, perhaps. But Wise was not a member of GAR when he was arrested. He was also on a planet outside of GAR’s immediate jurisdiction (Bakura) unless they were acting with a federal mandate (Republic space) making this Federal enforcement. Do you understand? Operating on Bakura, around GAR’s base, is a “local” issue. Operating on another planet, in Republic space, because you have access to Republic space, is a “federal” issue, therefore making this a federal arrest for a crime done solely against GAR when GAR was not a part of the Republic (i.e. a “local” issue).

        Brave :
        No they do not. First of all, Again, Wise’ status would not change under the new constitution, he still would be considered a deserting officer of the grand army and therefore military personnel and would fall under military jurisdiction as a result.

        Except when you arrested him you were doing so under the authority of federal officers of the Republic, making it a Federal case. Also, you acknowledge that courts marshal can completely ignore any and all civil rights, which is why I don’t consider courts marshal “real” trials, in absentium or otherwise.

        Brave :That’s debatable.There is no law against capital punishment, and it’s stretching to say that The death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment

        You asked for it bucko
        Preparing to Execute
        a bloody death
        Standing over the blood

        Brave :
        All those who cry for “Justice” for ‘Vice’ Remember his crime, Remember he broadcast it, Remember he was an OFFICER OF THE GRAND ARMY OF THE REPUBLIC. That he is beholden to those laws and when he broke them, he gave up any rights he had.

        So again you reiterate that GAR’s laws supersede all others. Congrats. You’re a douchebag, but at least you’re being honest about it.

  12. Brave
    December 1, 2011 at 6:38 AM

    MISSING.THE.ENTIRE.FUCKING.POINT.

    Wise isn’t a civilian, and he wasn’t a citizen transferring to another planet to gain citizenship there. Your points would be valid, all well and good provided wise had retired with honors. or had been summarily discharged.

    BUT YOU’RE FORGETTING HE WASN’T. HE WAS A DESERTER. DESERTERS ARE STILL LEGALLY PART OF THE SERVICE.

    Wise stole military property, deserted in an incredibly grandstanding way and joined and aided the enemies of the Republic by lending them those stolen resources and working with and for them, but no matter how long he had been on the lamb, no matter how long it had been, there is no statute of limitations on desertion and no statute of limitations on treason.
    He still counts as a military man, and for those purposes, he is still a member of the grand
    army. And thus falls under their laws.

    He’s not a citizen of anything, he’s a wanted fugitive, I say again We should not recognize or grant war criminals and deserters the rights that protect them against proper military justice. It defeats the purposes and makes our justice system a Joke.

    I mean, if wise had been properly discharged, if he wasn’t a fugitive from justice and had been legally retired from service, Then you would be 100% right. But Wise made a grandstanding show of his desertion, theft, and act of treason.

    What makes you think that such an action would grant him ANY protections from a court marshal when his crimes fall almost explicitly under military law? Citizens and Civilians do not get charged with desertion. Civilians do not have to worry about breaking their oaths as an Officer.

    GAR’s military police took action to arrest one of their own, the execution on the spot was, I admit, debatable morally. but legally it was 100% within their rights.

    • December 1, 2011 at 4:38 PM

      I see someone’s really taken a liking to that cruise control for cool. And still doesn’t understand anything about how laws work when not viewed through the narrow black slits of the clone council’s sacred words. I wonder if anyone has even read this GS’s stupid constitution or if they just decided they’d prefer to be ignorant to the laws they were agreeing to acknowledge and uphold. I read the whole thing out of boredom- but someone who has some stake in the GS really should be aware of how it works. That is clearly not GAR.

      Here is how all of this works. I explained it several times in my last post, so I’m going to go very slowly for you so you might have a chance to grasp it now- I’m really giving you the benefit of the doubt here, which I guess makes me as bad as the senators who approved GAR, but this is the last time I rehash the self-evident.

      GAR was not a part of the Republic until fairly recently. Until that time, GAR did not represent the Republic and was not recognized by the Republic in any official terms as representing its military. The Republic did not recognize any of GAR’s inner workings or laws as consistent with its own legal structure when Wise committed his crime because it was committed against GAR, an entity not even in the Republic, at a time when the GS did not contain GAR.

      This was a crime against GAR, not the Republic, because it was committed against GAR before it was in the Republic.

      What is the precedent for this? Every other entry to membership in the Republic. Dantooine, Yavin, most of the Republic’s worlds have been attacked repeatedly and violently in far more heinous ways than a grand theft by much more significant forces before they joined the Galactic Senate. Even Bakura has been attacked by a number of different forces, sometimes even without provocation. And yet it was only those attacks made on those worlds after they joined the GS that the Republic responded to. They did not try to arrest or hold a trial for or declare a war on every Sith who had come to take a stab at their worlds before that point because those crimes were committed against those worlds in the past, and not against the entity of the Republic, since the Republic, as far as those worlds were concerned, didn’t even exist then.

      This is the case because there’s a dimension called “time” which generally only travels in one direction at a constant rate. Events are aged by this dimension, and their relation to other events are relative along the terms of this dimension. In this case, it was several months/years between the event of Wise’s crime and the event of GAR joining and being recognized by the Republic.

      Wiseman was a member of GAR, was a traitor, grand larcenist, whatever you want to call him, it may be obvious but everything he did was done without any relation to the Republic. His standing when GAR had nothing to do with the Republic was not one of recognition of GAR (since we’ve established the GS didn’t recognize GAR as a GS member then). So how would he be classified?

      According to your constitution, people who are members of the GS are construed by the law as “class A” citizens. People not in the GS are “class B” non-citizens. Then there’s Dangerous non-citizens and Enemies of the Republic, neither of which Wise was declared to be or qualified to be. Let’s just nail that down.

      Wise was not a GS citizen. By process of elimination, he is one of the remaining three.

      Article 1, Section 2, Subsection II: Class designation “B”- GSoNR Non-Citizen.
      II:1. Any being who is not a citizen of the GSoNR and who does not infringe upon the laws of the GSoNR, the laws of the GSoNR member worlds, or the sovereignty of the GSoNR member worlds.

      Wise committed his crime upon GAR and Bakura when it was not a member world of the GSoNR. Again, like Yavin and all other worlds, past crimes and attacks against the world made when it was not a member of the Republic are not acknowleged by the Republic as crimes against the Republic.

      II:2. Any being who voluntarily chooses not to become citizen of the GSoNR.

      Wise chose not to be a citizen of the GSoNR, as did most of GAR before and after his defection, and all of this before and after GAR was recognized by the Republic.

      II:3. Any being born on any of the GSoNR member world and chooses not to pursue GSoNR citizenship.

      I’d say it’s too soon for this to be invoked, but referring to that months/years discrepancy again it would seem children can grow to adults in the time since the GS was created, but it’s still not relevant to Wise.

      Now for dangerous non-citizens:
      III:1. Any intergalactically recognized criminal, who infringes upon the laws of the GSoNR, the laws of the member worlds, or the sovereignty of the member worlds.
      III:2. Any force-sensitive being, who is a member of a Force-based organization that does not declare itself “Light” in alignment and/or is a member of any Dark side organizations.
      III:3. Any being, who is a member of an organization that has used, or threatened to use, force or otherwise harm against GSoNR citizens.
      III:4. Any being, who poses a significant danger to GSoNR citizens and Non-Citizens, through their manipulation of: the dark side of the Force, weapons of mass destruction, war technology, bio-technology, or criminal influences.

      Wise, again, was recognized by GAR as a criminal, but clearly not by the galaxy (considering the ease with which he found a new home). He acted against GAR and Bakura when they were not in the GS and therefore did not commit any crimes against GSoNR member worlds. He’s also not a Sith or a superweapon. The only part that might apply is III:3, but at the time of his arrest he was the member of an organization providing aid to a Republic planet, and note the language of the law uses “is” not “was” (which you repeatedly used) indicating the present tense of the status as acknowledged by law.

      The senate never declared war against the Hutts so Enemies of the Republic can’t possibly apply.

      With all of that established by law, and by process of elimination, Wise is considered by the Republic a “class B” Non-citizen. He was considered one before GAR joined the Republic, and honoring the present tense of the laws, he would be considered one as GAR joined the Republic and beyond. If he were still alive.

      GAR’s laws don’t matter in this case, in the Republic’s eyes, because GAR’s inner machinations were not recognized as legitimate until it joined the Republic, and not once before. Any ruling made by GAR before it joined the GS may as well have not been made at all. That works for any world, again, and there are far worse cases the Republic could grant authority to act against if they wanted to recognize every crime committed on worlds in the GS before they were in the GS. But the Republic has never had that prerogative.

      So now we get to the arrest. GAR were acting as federal officers (because they were acting on Republic authority on a world they wouldn’t otherwise have had any authority on, Tython). They made an arrest on a federally recognized Non-Citzen for a crime not federally recognized. The first problem. Then they held this Non-Citzen without trial and then executed them, breaking all those other laws.

      If GAR wanted to proceed legally, here’s what they should have done:
      Request extradition of Wise from Tython. Get Wise to Bakura and then arrest him on Bakura under local authority as a fugitive from the previous ruling and continue as prescribed by local law (though to be truly squeaky clean, without the execution). If you eliminate the wielding of federal authority, it would be quite easy for GAR to get away with this legally. However, they took advantage of their federal authority to expand the power of their local agenda to another Republic world, and then acted on that instead, disregarding all relevant laws and rights in the process to do so.

      And now we have come full circle. GAR abused their federal authority to make an arrest for a non-federal crime. That is what I was pointing out in the first place, and why GAR is showing they have no regard for law and do not deserve to have any authority from the law.

      • Brave
        December 2, 2011 at 6:30 AM

        As I explained earlier, Military Procedures in the case of military crimes always supercede civilian ones when it comes to their own men. GAR could’ve legally attempted to extract him from Freaking byss and would have no legal repurcussions. WIse as an Officer, Still belonged to the Grand Army, no matter what you think the constitution says about it. How hard is that to understand? And furtherrmore, The GAR has patrolled and fought to defend planets of Republic space since before the Republic existed. it doesn’t matter in the slightest the difference between ‘federal’ or ‘local’ authority here. They’re not a police agency, they’re a Military, an Armed Force and can be deployed wherever the commander in chief, (The Chancellor) or the Clone Council, Damn well pleases! They used their MILITARY Police, who are there to make sure their own do not break the law, to arrest him. It doesn’t matter where, because jurisdiction isn’t remotely a factor, because Wise belonged to the grand army of the republic, he was not a citizen, or a non citizen, he had no legal rights because of his desertion in regards to facing up to his crimes against the military agency he swore to serve.

  1. No trackbacks yet.
Comments are closed.